Treaty principles debate: David Seymour rules out supporting citizens-initiated referendum

Tuesday, 8 October 2024

The architect of the controversial Treaty Principles Bill, David Seymour, has ruled out a citizens-initiated referendum after his bill fails.

The ACT leader made the commitment in a head-to-head debate with Te Rūnanga o Toa Rangatira chief executive Helmut Modlik.

Modlik largely argued that Maori never ceded sovereignty to the Crown and so Te Tiriti was an agreement between nations while Seymour said his bill sought to “fill in the blanks” of the treaty’s principles.

The livestreamed debate - titled “the Iwi vs PeeWee” - was hosted by The Working Group podcast, moderated by hosts self-described socialist Martyn Bradbury and libertarian Damien Grant and watched live by more than 2000 people.

In his opening statement, Seymour described the treaty as “a beautiful document, it is the foundation of our country”, but said the problems came after Parliament passed a law about the treaty’s principles 50 years ago.

“Parliament forgot to do something, it forgot to say what those principles actually are.”

And in rushed the courts, the academics and the public service to determine what politicians meant, and their interpretation had become “a partnership between races” which was divisive, said Seymour.

“I think if Parliament was to finally answer the question of what the principles are we can go forward.”

Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill is a promise won in ACT’s coalition deal with National that he would have support for the first reading of a bill to re-interpret the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.

National and NZ First will not support the bill in the second reading while all opposition parties will vote against it at first reading, meaning the bill is doomed to fail.

Modlik has previously called for Seymour to “kill the bill” and said during the debate that truth, justice and fairness were at stake in Aotearoa.

Seymour’s interpretation was wrong because there was no evidence that more than 100,000 fiercely independent people of Aotearoa in 1840 surrendered their mana motuhake and ceded sovereignty to the Crown, he said.

Everything that flowed after that was “ultra vires” ‒ meaning the Government was acting outside of its legal authority.

Respectful co-existence was the vision of the chiefs and what they’d agreed to so the only way forward is with that co-existence, said Modlik.

'My point being, to think that the rangatira would totally surrender their mana to a couple of blokes and some missionaries, is preposterous, culturally and psychologically impossible.'

The pair agreed that defining people by race was divisive but fundamentally disagreed over whether the treaty does that.

Seymour was asked by Bradbury whether his Treaty Principles Bill was a means to gather support for a citizens-initiated referendum, which require at least 10% of eligible voters to sign a petition.

That meant it would require about 350,000 Kiwis to support the proposed referendum question.

Seymour ruled out encouraging one, saying there were other ways to advance his cause and a citizens-initiated referendum was non-binding so wouldn’t build people’s faith in democracy.

“Which is one of my goals in my career.”

Modlik said democracy was a work of fiction and required the consent of the governed to be table and thrive. He called it a work in progress.

“It’s hard to listen to libertarians ignore the black and white of a contract just because it suits them to move on.”

The Treaty Principles Bill will likely have its first reading next month, then go to a six month select committee process to hear public submissions before it is likely killed at second reading.

Officials have already warned the Government that the bill “calls into question the very purpose of the Treaty and its status in our constitutional arrangements”.