Election 2023: Chris Hipkins and Christopher Luxon come to life in fiery leaders’ debate
Chris Hipkins and Christopher Luxon have both pledged to keep the number of police higher than the number of gang members, lower the age for bowel cancer screening, and have pay parity for all nurses.
They also promised to lift 80,000 more children out of poverty by 2028 - though Hipkins said Luxon’s plan to peg benefit levels to inflation rather than wages would increase poverty - showed support for menopause leave for women, and were open to taxing charities.
They each promised to match Australia for bowel cancer screening, which would see the age lowered from 60 to 50, and to 45 for some people.
The National and Labour leaders clashed during the second leaders’ debate last night, which was moderated by Newshub’s Patrick Gower in front of an audience of 200 undecided voters.
STORY CONTINUES AFTER THE LIVE BLOG
‘Everything’s at stake’ for Māori in upcoming election, Kelvin Davis warns
Royce
Davis said that if a National-led coalition were elected, it would probably remove references to the Treaty of Waitangi from legislation, which would be a major setback for Māori rights.
Davis made the comments in an interview with TeAoNews.co.nz. He warned of devastating consequences for Māori if National’s coalition partner Act was successful in redefining Te Tiriti and putting it to a referendum.
“If they do away with rangatiratanga, two things happen,” Davis said. “They lump Māori in with every other minority in the country. They say, ‘you know, there’s nothing special about tangata whenua, you’re just the same as everyone else.’”
Read more here:
Seymour supports guidance, longer debate on proposed Treaty referendum
Royce
Act leader David Seymour says he would recommend that Parliament take longer debating definitions of the Treaty of Waitangi principles, a policy that is central to his party’s campaign.
He also supported seeking guidance ahead of initiating that legislation and holding a referendum in the hope it would safeguard the public debate from the racist rhetoric Seymour accepts the topic can prompt.
That guidance was unlikely to come from iwi leaders, according to Seymour, who claimed the National Iwi Chairs Forum was “not interested” in discussing a potential referendum on the Treaty principles.
Read more here:
On the Campaign: Inside the latest leaders' debate and the Parliament protest
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Listen to the latest episode of On the Campaign for analysis on the latest leaders' debate from Media Insider Shayne Currie - including which moment sparked a bad reaction in the room - and Wellington reporter Melissa Nightingale on what happened - or didn't - at the Brian Tamaki-led protest today.
Hipkins ‘angry’ at National’s ‘race-baiting’ - says Māori have most to lose
Royce
Labour leader Chris Hipkins has accused Christopher Luxon of “race-baiting” for votes - one of two paths he says politicians from traditional political parties have taken at elections.
Hipkins made the comments in a passionate scene-setting speech in Kawakawa today to a predominately Māori audience, where he he described those pathways as “race-baiting” or avoiding the issue.
“It’s depressing the options have been race-baiting or just keeping quiet.”
Read more here:
10 things National Party leader Christopher Luxon needs to know about Winston Peters
Natasha Gordon
“I don’t know him,” National leader Christopher Luxon said, when asked if he thought NZ First leader Winston Peters was good or bad for the country during the Newshub Leaders’ Debate on Wednesday night.
He may soon have to get to know him a lot better: NZ First’s rise in the polls has meant in the NZ Herald’s Poll of Polls, the chances of National being able to form a government with Act alone have dropped to 45 per cent.
The NZ Herald has compiled a handy guide of 10 things Luxon should know about Peters.
Read the full story here:
Winston Peters issues statement on Labour's 'dirt campaign'
Natasha Gordon
New Zealand First leader Winston Peters has backed Rangitata candidate Rob Ballantyne, saying if a quote by Ballantyne which Labour leader Chris Hipkins used in the Newshub debate related to the “disease of co-governance”, then he was “backing him to the hilt”.
Read the full story here:
Luxon on other topics
Natasha Gordon
"MMPs election are always close, so I don't want to be complacent."
Luxon agreed that a bi-partisan approach to climate change is needed because it's a multi-generational issue.
"I am prepared to stake my job on delivering low and middle income tax relief to New Zealanders and I am confident we will be able to raise tax from foreign home buyers," Luxon said.
'It's the right thing to do': Luxon stands by his bowel cancer commitment
Natasha Gordon
Luxon said he stands by his commitment on bowel cancer.
"I have asked Dr Shane Reti to go and find and create a way to make sure how it could happen," he said.
"It's the right thing to do"
He said he would look at menopause lead but wants to see how it work first.
'Horrible': Luxon slams racist comment from NZ First MP's
Bailey Brannon
Luxon said NZ First MP's comments are racist and horrible and I don't condone them.
He said "I'm sure I can work with Winston Peters, but my preference is a National-Act government."
"The New Zealand voters are never wrong and if NZ First comes back into parliament I will pick up the phone and work with him."
National says they will introduce their gang laws within first 100 days
Bailey Brannon
National Party leader Christopher Luxon said the party's new gang laws will be introduced within the first 100 days.
Luxon said if you want to wear a gang patch in public, you will face consequences.
"We haven't engaged with police in the forming of this policy."
"We're going to make life difficult for the gangs. That's why they don't support us but they support the Labour Party," he said
He said the idea that gangs are nice and responsible kiwis, but they have rights and responsibilities to be decent to their fellow Kiwis.
Luxon said National is not race-bating.
"Hipkins is a desperate guy in a desperate situation and has turned the debate negative," Luxon said.
'Very scary': Luxon speaks to robbery victim in Whakatāne
Bailey Brannon
Luxon has finished a quick walkabout in Whakatāne where he spoke with staff at a jewellery store that’s been robbed three times since 2020.
Owner Angelia Le Sueur told the National leader how the most recent robbery on August 4 was during the day, sending staff into a panic and forced them to escape into the front room.
“Very scary,” staffer Bronwyn said of the incident, her voice breaking.
Sue, who’d worked for the shop for 20 years, said she’d never experienced crime like it in her time.
Angelia said the offender, who was suspected to have been involved in a previous robbery of the store, took about $10,000 worth of product.
She said the police had told her the offender was supposed to be on electronically monitored home detention at the time.
Angelia said it had given her a fair amount of anxiety and stress.
After most journalists had left, Luxon quietly told the store owner how he was grateful for letting him visit, claiming some media didn’t truly appreciate the real impact of crime on businesses.
Speaking after Luxon had left, Angelia acknowledged she was supporting National and admitted she didn’t know who the local candidate was.
Luxon was a popular figure during the rest of his walkabout.
One man at a cafe who commended Luxon’s effort during last night’s debate, saying it seemed as though the two leaders had switched places and Hipkins was the Opposition leader.
“He’s just practising,” another man joked.
'It feels like decades of gains are at risk in this election' - Hipkins
Vera Alves
Hipkins returned to the quote he read from a NZ First candidate during last night's leaders debate in which that person spoke of removing a "disease".
"I will not stand for that kind of overt racism and I will call it out whenever and wherever I see it."
He said Crown and Māori working together was "not scary and does not cause division".
"It feels like decades of gains are at risk in this election. I want us to draw a line in the sand. I want us as a country to say division has no place in politics and it will not win an election.
"I firmly believe when Māori thrive then Aotearoa New Zealand will thrive."
Vera Alves
Vera Alves
Hipkins said Luxon that it was "okay because he thinks it gives him 10 per cent in the polls."
"It's the wrong time to undo the hard-fought gains that have been made."
Hipkins also fired shots at Act.
"We all assume the Treaty is set in stone." Yet Seymour's "bottom line" referenda on the Treaty of Waitangi threatened to chip away at it until "all they have is a pile of rubble".
"It's as if history never happened."
In contrast, he said he believed in the Treaty.
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Hipkins said Luxon's pledge to abolish the Māori Health Authority showed "he knows better than Māori about Māori Health and wellbeing".
"He wants one system for all even when that system is failing 20 per cent of our population."
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Hipkins said there remained politicians who saw taking an approach against Māori as a way to win votes.
"It's not pretty and it's wrong."
That included using terms such as "one system for all", referencing Luxon using that phrase in the first televised leaders' debate.
"It made me angry," said a visibly riled Hipkins.
He said Māori were not "over-privileged" but on the wrong side of Health and social statistics.
New Zealand 'refuses to turn a blind eye to racism' - Hipkins
Vera Alves
Hipkins spoke of the journey taken by New Zealand through the experience of deputy leader Kelvin Davis' "Aunty Isie" who was 104.
"We've grown from a country that ignored its history to one that teaches it to every children in our schools."
Ours was a country that once saw teachers beat children for speaking te reo Māori to one that taught it in schools, he said.
New Zealand was a country "that refuses to turn a blind eye to racism".
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Chris Hipkins has accused Christopher Luxon of "race-baiting" for votes - one of two paths he says politicians from traditional political parties have taken at elections.
In a speech at Kawakawa today to a predominately Māori audience, he described those pathways as "race baiting" or avoiding the issue.
"It's depressing the options have been race-baiting or just keeping quiet."
Hipkins said he intended to take a different route and celebrate the benefits to the nation when Māori and the Crown worked together.
"I've decided to do something novel and stick to the truth and my own values."
Vera Alves
The National bus was forced to stop for about 10 minutes at some roadworks east of Te Puke, where only one lane of traffic was allowed.
Luxon took the opportunity to chat with those on board.
"This is why we need new roads right," Luxon said with a depressed tone.
"Imagine getting stuck in this every day."
As he approached the back of the bus where media were sitting, he came across a Newstalk ZB reporter doing a live cross to the station's morning Wellington show.
Not wasting an opportunity for more publicity, Luxon gladly accepted the invitation to pop the reporter's earphones in and chat with host Nick Mills for a few minutes.
They spoke briefly about last night's debate, with Luxon calling Hipkins "out of sorts" and "negative".
He doubled-down on a comment he made last night, confirming he would give Hipkins a hug if the Labour leader wanted one.
After leaving the call, Luxon said to one of his supporters about the roadworks: "only another 10 minutes to wait".
No sooner were the words out of his mouth when the light turned green and the bus rolled on.
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Hipkins in Kawakawa
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Chris Hipkins with school students in Kawakawa.
Video / Michael Cunningham
Vera Alves
Vera Alves
Luxon bus tour to Whakatane stopped off on Te Puke with lots of supporters and an opportunity to prove he was there by holding today’s local paper after being caught out in the past.
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Labour deputy leader Kelvin Davis, speaking to the school children, recalled his days at Kawakawa Primary School in the 1970s - “a couple of decades ago” - when there was no kapa haka and “very little Māori spoken”.
He referred to the nearby battle site of Ruapekapeka which he described as “one of the most decisive events of our history” and that “we didn’t know a thing about it”.
“I grew up in a predominantly Pākehā world and you are growing up in a predominantly Māori world and it is a wonderful thing.”
Luxon was really in Te Puke this time
Vera Alves
Christopher Luxon has boarded his big blue campaign bus, yet to be officially named, as he travels east along the Bay of Plenty coast.
Landing in Tauranga this morning, Luxon chatted briefly with a few people in the airport. One told him the assessment by some media commentators that Labour's Chris Hipkins won last night's televised leaders debate was rubbish, while another believed the public would see through the commentary and deem Luxon the winner.
The bus, almost full with local candidates and other party members, made a brief stop in Te Puke. The small town made headlines last year when Luxon posted a video to social media which said he was in Te Puke, when he was actually in Hawaii on holiday.
A team of about 60 National supporters waving party signs welcomed the bus on arrival.
National's Bay of Plenty candidate Tom Rutherford was enthusiastic with megaphone in hand, urging the crowd to chant "party vote National" as Luxon exited the bus.
Not seeing much success, Rutherford changed tack and began chanting part of National's slogan "back on track".
Barely anyone joined him. Tauranga candidate Sam Uffindell gave a half-hearted attempt initially but didn't continue.
Perhaps reading the room, Rutherford began chanting "back on the bus".
It was quite appropriate. Luxon was on the roadside with a sign in hand for all of a minute before he had to be ushered back on the bus again.
Vera Alves
Vera Alves
Ngati Hine leader Pita Tipene greeted Hipkins, acknowledging his predecessor Jacinda Ardern, saying the government was building positive Crown and Māori relations.
"The relationship we have with the current government with you as Prime Minister has us on the right path while others are exploiting the uncertainty of people's fears, particularly as they relate to Māori.
"Me, I don't like it one bit."
Tipene said he was not encouraging people to vote for a particular party - "I just want people to vote".
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Chris Hipkins has arrived at Ngati Hine Health Trust in Kawakawa, Northland, where he is being welcomed in a powhiri with a rousing waiata from local Kawakawa Primary School children.
Brian and Hannah Tamaki join the Freedom and Rights Coalition's march on Parliament
Natasha Gordon
Brian and Hannah Tamaki leave their Wellington hotel to join the Freedom and Rights Coalition's march on Parliament.
Seymour at sinkhole in Parnell
Natasha Gordon
Photo / Tomas Rice
Luxon lands in Tauranga
Natasha Gordon
Luxon chats to airport patrons and hands out tickets to media for his bus ride to Whakatāne.
Vera Alves
When asked to comment on Chris Luxon's remarks about Winston Peters saying 'I don't know him, Seymour said "I'm not in charge of Chris Luxon's social calendar."
"For some people he is less important than he is to you, Jenna."
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"I suspect one way or another, New Zealand will end up in line with Act's climate policy."
When asked for a one word answer on whether Winston Peters is bad for New Zealand, Seymour said "Peters' record speaks for itself."
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Seymour said he believes in a bi-partisan climate policy.
"Subsidising Australian companies to bring down climate change is a waste of money."
"We should have ETS with a cap in line with our trading partners."
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When asked whether he calculated how much Chris and Chris promised to spend, he said Act has put out a key line by line policy.
"New Zealand is going to have to start saving money to balance the books."
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"New Zealand needs to build 51,000 houses," Seymour said.
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Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has arrived in Kerikeri, flying in for a day of campaigning for Labour.
He was met by Labour electorate MP Willow Jean Prime who holds the seat with slim majority of 163 votes.
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When asked whether Labour's new landlord restrictions or the cost of housing is putting landlord off, Seymour said the more rules and regulations on landlords makes them less likely to rent them out.
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Seymour said he doesn't support the NZ First quote mentioned in the debate last night.
"I don't see myself sitting around a Cabinet table with any one other than the National Party," said Seymour.
"We want a stable Act or National government."
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He said the pet bond reflects any additional cleaning or anxiety incurred by the landlord.
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"It's not fair by not having any priority of those tenants who have not been abusing their neighbours."
When asked how many tenants would be evicted, Seymour said there have been more than 10,000 complaints to Kainga Ora this year.
Act releases landlords and tenants policy
Vera Alves
The full release from Act is below:
“Landlords have been scapegoated and blamed by Labour for the housing crisis when the real cause is a lack of housing supply”, says Act leader David Seymour.
“Act will end Labour’s war on landlords, including by immediately reinstating mortgage interest deductibility from April 2024.
“We will also protect the community from unruly tenants in state housing by making it easier to evict them, putting them at the bottom of the housing waitlist, and giving more deserving families a home.
“Labour’s policies of removing mortgage interest deductibility, bright-line test extensions, and Residential Tenancies Act, and other, changes have piled cost and bureaucracy on landlords.
“Policies introduced to ‘protect’ tenants have ended up hurting them with higher rents. Real solutions for renters don’t involve pitting tenants against landlords but making it easier to build houses to bring rents down and give tenants more choice.
“ACT will:
- Reinstate interest deductibility for residential landlords with effect from April 2024, rather than phasing it in over three years. ACT’s fully costed Alternative Budget accounts for this.
- Abolish the bright-line test, a stealth capital gains tax introduced by National.
- Simplify the process for evicting unruly tenants. ACT would amend s55A of the Residential Tenancies Act so, rather than having to issue tenants with three written notices within 90 days, landlords would only have to issue two written notices within a year.
- Reverse Labour’s changes to notice periods for landlords and tenants. ACT will return tenants’ notice period to 21 days (currently 28) and landlords’ to 42 days if they want to sell or move in (currently 90 days if they want to sell or 63 days if they want to move in).
- Enable landlords to charge a pet bond to increase the number of rentals allowing pets.
“ACT will also make it easier to evict disruptive Kāinga Ora tenants. ACT will:
- Remove National and Labour’s damaging ‘sustaining tenancies’ policy.
- Amend section 55A of the Residential Tenancies Act so, rather than having to issue tenants with three written notices within 90 days, landlords would instead only have to issue two written notices within a year.
- Reduce bureaucracy around termination. Sign-off would only be required from the service unit manager, not the Deputy Chief Executive and Chief Executive.
- Specify that a tenancy can be terminated and not simply transferred to a different Kāinga Ora property if the tenant engages in dangerous or severe disruptive behaviour. Such behaviour would include drug production or supply, acts of violence, presentation of weapons, persistent intimidation or malicious harassment, and threatening or intimidating behaviour.
- Clarify that tenants who are terminated for anti-social behaviour will be moved to the bottom of the public housing and emergency housing waitlists.
- Clarify that the requirement for Kāinga Ora to ‘prove’ anti-social behaviour can include testimony from other residents in the neighbourhood. Both parties would have access to a private hearing by the Tenancy Tribunal to give testimony. This will protect witnesses and tenants in vulnerable situations who may be victims of abuse or intimidation.
- Apply section 53B of the Residential Tenancies Act to all forms of tenancy, rather than just periodic tenancies. When a tenancy is determined to be terminated, reduce required notice for tenants from 90 days to 21 days.
- Require Kāinga Ora to engage with Police if they are made aware of illegal activity.
- Introduce a duty for Kāinga Ora to process and consider all public complaints, and to inform complainants of its decision.
“These tenants would not simply be moved on to another Kāinga Ora tenancy. ACT would move them to the bottom of both the public housing and emergency housing waitlists. This will introduce consequences for bad behaviour and provide an incentive for tenants to change their beha viour. And it will give more deserving people on the housing register who have not treated the community with disrespect a chance to be housed.”
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"If a public house is a privilege being paid for by tax payers, those on waiting list who haven't been unsociable tenants, should receive priority."
Act wants additional bond for renters with pets
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He would like to add additional bond for those who wants a pet in a property.
"There will be lots of criteria, and one of which will be if the pet is a good boy."
He said these changes will make it easier, there will be good supply, and tenants will be more of a chance.
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Act Party leader David Seymour announces landlords and tenants policy.
Seymour said the government has put more pressures to be a landlord, making it less attractive and harder to move bad tenants on.
"It has the opposite effect as it intended."
Funding boost to Te Tai Tokerau flood resilience
Vera Alves
The Government has approved new funding that will boost resilience and greatly reduce the risk of major flood damage across Te Tai Tokerau.
Significant weather events this year caused severe flooding and damage across the region. The $8.9m will be used to provide some of the smaller communities and maraes that were badly impacted better protection from future flooding.
“Alongside supporting Te Tai Tokerau to rebuild and recover we need to prepare for any future events and the Government is committed to helping councils and mana whenua do just that,” Chris Hipkins said.
The bulk of the funding, $4.2m, will go towards reducing the risk of flooding in Kawakawa, Otiria-Moerewa, Kaeo, Matangirau, Whirinaki, and Punaruku, including marae often flooded or at risk from flooding. Remaining funds will go towards projects including removing fallen and at-risk trees from flood-risk rivers, stormwater upgrades, stabilising work, stop bank repairs, and early warning systems.
“Te Tai Tokerau includes some very remote areas, and it was these small, isolated communities that were really hit hard by these weather events,” Kelvin Davis said.
“We need to focus on building up our infrastructure resilience in the region, with this flood protection work going alongside work around our roading network and other core services.
“Marae also played a big part in responding and helping out the community during the disaster and I’m pleased to be able to provide some of the marae most at risk to further flooding with funding.”
The $8.9m announced today is from the $100m funding announced as part of Budget 2023. This fund was specifically set aside for practical flood protection infrastructure like stop banks as well as other local measures that can protect communities from flooding.
It comes alongside previous further cyclone funding for the region, including $44m for immediate works on state highways affected by the severe weather.
Election 2023: Transport policy - buses, trains and cycleways to the Left, roads to the Right
Vera Alves
The Herald’s political and specialist reporters examine the big issues facing New Zealand and how the main political parties plan to deal with them.
Today Bernard Orsman looks at transport.
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"There's a whole bunch of unfunded commitments they've made," Luxon said.
Hosking said he didn't get where the money came from for Nationals plans.
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Luxon claimed Labour's costings and funding often fell short and didn't last for four years. He said school lunches and Pharmac funding were examples of this.
"They always blame something else... on blowing their budget."
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He emphasised he didn't think National winning was a done deal, and urged Kiwis to vote.
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Luxon said he did not concede that he lost the debate.
"I think the sad thing is all he's talking about is me and National," Luxon said of Hipkins during the debate.
Luxon said he would possibly approach the next debate differently after Hipkins came out swinging last night.
Luxon said he wants to see a two-party government, National and ACT.
"All I'm being is quite pragmatic," Luxon said on not ruling Winston Peters out as a coalition partner.
Luxon said his internal polling shows the results will be close, and said at times it shows their party over 40 per cent.
"I think people predict we're going to win, they think it's a done deal," Luxon said.
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National Party Leader Christopher Luxon spoke to Mike Hosking about last night's debate and tomorrow's fiscal policy announcement on NewstalkZB.
Who won last night's leaders debate?
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Did you watch the debate last night? It was definitely not dull!
Our expert panel has rated the performances of both Chrises and came to a unanimous decision on the winner.
What landlords, 1.3m tenants must read - balance could swing against renters
Vera Alves
Next month’s election could have a big impact on owners of nearly 600,000 rental properties and 1.3 million tenants if the Government changes.
Property editor Anne Gibson examines 10 key policy platforms, and how they will affect renters and landlords.
Vera Alves
Mōrena, Aotearoa! Welcome to another day of the 2023 election campaign. Stay with us as we bring you the latest news as the leaders prepare for another day on the campaign trail.
STORY CONTINUES
The debate traversed a range of topics including the cost of living, law and order, the under-resourced health sector, falling education attainment, and how to breathe life into an economy with little wriggle room in coming years.
It followed a 1News Verian poll showing National and Act would need NZ First to form a government, the second poll this week to do so.
Labour and National have already released most of their major policies, and with overseas voting starting and advanced voting beginning on Monday, the pressure was on Hipkins to find some way to resonate with voters.
And Hipkins came out firing.
“You haven’t said one thing you’d do differently,” Hipkins said as Luxon went through the boot camps for young offenders plan that the previous National Government did, with 83 per cent going on to re-offend.
“There’s no evidence that will work ... You’re repeating the same mistake over and over again,” Hipkins said.
Luxon, who said his boot camps would be better, retorted at one point: “It’s not going to make great TV if we’re talking over each other. Calm down ... You like to say things but that doesn’t make it so.”
At one point Luxon said Hipkins needed a hug because of all his negativity.
“You don’t like to be challenged,” Hipkins said. “If you answered questions I wouldn’t need to challenge you.”
When the debate turned to gangs, Luxon said gang members are voting for Labour, to which Hipkins said: “That’s nonsense.”
There are currently about 9000 gang members and 10,700 police, and they both promised to keep police numbers higher than gang members. Both parties have committed to increasing the number of police by 300 over the next four years.
Luxon wouldn’t say if he expected police to approach gang members and rip patches off them, but he wanted patches banned from public places.
Provoking an audience laugh, Hipkins asked him how police would identify gang members if they were patch-less.
On the scenario of a gang funeral, Luxon said he expected police to enter the funeral and go after gang members while Hipkins said that would be dangerous and they should go after them once the funeral was over.
Luxon also said he didn’t think a teenager taking the illegal substance MDMA at a festival was a criminal, before back-tracking and saying they were a criminal. He was comfortable with current drug laws, which criminalise drug use.
Hipkins said though they were a criminal under the law, he was open to reviewing drug laws. This is not something Labour was willing to do in the past six years, and is an issue where the Greens have tried to push Labour into a review of a law that is widely considered outdated.
Hipkins also said he was open to decriminalising cannabis, having voted in favour of legalising it in the referendum.
Luxon had a go at Hipkins over the increase in government spending, but Hipkins said hundreds of millions of dollars of that money had gone to pensioners, health and education.
“You’re saying those things are wasteful spending. That’s not wasteful spending.”
On quickfire questions, they agreed feral cats were pests and should be included in 2050 predator-free, and that there should be menopause leave for women. Luxon was okay with exporting live animals, with conditions, while Hipkins was against it.
Asked who would be a better foreign minister out of Judith Collins or Winston Peters, Luxon said he hadn’t thought about it.
“That’s not a great endorsement of Judith,” said Hipkins. “You know she’s the one on your team.”
Neither of them said the country was racist, but Hipkins said Luxon wanted to work with people who are “race-baiting”.
He read out a statement from a NZ First candidate that both agreed was racist. “Christopher, you’re willing to work with these people,” Hipkins said.
Luxon said it would be a last resort to work with NZ First and its leader Winston Peters in order to change the government, but he wanted a National-Act coalition.
“You worked for him for three years,” Luxon said, to which Hipkins said: “And I’d never do it again.”
Luxon wouldn’t say if NZ First leader Winston Peters was good for the country, saying he didn’t know him.
“Everyone knows him!” Gower exclaimed.
On a wealth tax - wanted by the Greens and Te Pāti Māori - being a bottom line to form a government, Hipkins said he didn’t think it would ever come to that.
“You’re not going to have leverage,” Luxon said.
Hipkins said: “Where’s your crystal ball? I didn’t know you had one.”
The Labour leader added that Act wanted to have more access to semi-automatic firearms, to which Luxon said “not going to happen”.
On tax, Luxon wouldn’t say if he would resign if he couldn’t raise the expected revenue from his foreign buyers tax.
He said he was committed to delivering tax relief as Hipkins interjected: “You’re not answering the question.”
Neither committed to cutting fuel taxes though National wouldn’t add any further taxes this coming term. Hipkins said National’s Emissions Trading System would push petrol prices up, which Luxon rejected.
Hipkins said it was a good investment to pay $90 million to Fonterra, which made a profit of $1.6 billion, to help the company cut emissions because otherwise the Government would have to buy international carbon credits.
Luxon said it was corporate welfare and profitable companies should invest in cutting emissions themselves, prompting Hipkins to say cutting that funding would push the price of petrol up by 40 cents a litre.
They both said forestry companies were responsible for forestry slash, and agreed to a bipartisan framework for moving communities impacted by climate change.
Luxon said he agreed with Labour’s policy to restrict vape stores around the country to 600 stores.
“That’s my policy, are you adopting it?” Hipkins asked him.
Luxon wouldn’t say if he regretted saying abortion was tantamount to murder, but repeated that he would resign if there was any change to abortion laws.
Asked who was New Zealand’s best Prime Minister, Hipkins said it was a tricky question.
“Are you going to say Chris Hipkins,” Luxon asked?
“Are you?” replied Hipkins, before eventually saying Michael Joseph Savage. Luxon opted for Keith Holyoake.
After the debate, Hipkins said Labour’s fiscal plan, released yesterday, showed more spending in coming years for health, which would enable further action for nurse pay parity and lowering the bowel cancer screening age.
He said he would look into menopause leave for women, but noted that he hadn’t committed to implementing it. He gave himself a nine out of 10 for his performance in the debate.
“The campaign might have started slow but I’ve decided I’m going to enjoy the rest of it and this is the kind of energy you’re going to see from me.”
He said NZ First, which was “absolutely playing the race card”, and Act were dividing New Zealanders who “deserved better than that”.
“I’m not sure where he’s been for the last 40 years,” Hipkins said about Luxon’s claim he didn’t know Peters.
He said it was no secret he was going after NZ First “and the racist statements they are making”, adding it was hard to go after National because the party wasn’t saying anything or releasing the numbers behind its tax package.
Asked if he was the king of the zingers, given his energetic interjections, Hipkins laughed and said he was the “king of the gingers”.
Luxon said it was a robust and free-wheeling debate, and he gave himself seven out of 10.
Asked if he would stake his leadership on bringing in his proposed foreign buyers tax for New Zealand homes worth over $2m, he avoided the question and said he was confident in his numbers.
He said he didn’t want to work with Peters, but it was a last resort and better than a Labour-led government.
The first leaders’ debate was widely seen as dull and lacking in new information, with Luxon winning by default given he had more to lose and didn’t make any mistakes.
Earlier this week Luxon said he would pick up the phone to Peters if he needed NZ First to change the government, though his first preference was for a National-Act coalition. Hipkins and Peters have both ruled each other out.
A third leaders’ debate will be held next week.
Derek Cheng is a senior journalist who started at the Herald in 2004. He has worked several stints in the press gallery team and is a former deputy political editor.